Carobit YouTube Discussions Conversation: Episode E13

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Originator:	Pino Carafa	Printable Version
Title:	Episode E13 - Shocking?

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From: Pino Carafa	On: 2007/05/06 01:57:32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8SXqnfJ6UY Now Mujtaba (evilmushy), I did make my point. You obviously aren't able to get it. So let's start with you. What do you actually think I'm doing with that video? Why do you think I posted it? What do you think my attitude is toward what is happening in that video?

From: Mujtaba_Alam	On: 2007/05/06 04:37:16
Hey Pino.. Well, Let me point it to point you made in your video.. ----------------------------------- You words: I Just Saw this on Youtube And It made me very Sad Sad that this is still neccesary for someone to have to go out of his way To do, with his OWN PROPERTY, whatever the HELL he pleases As Long as there are people who choose to make a hullabloo about someone doing something like this It will remain neccessary for people DO things like this So just get over it.. --------------------------- It is simply to show your "Support" for fellow Atheist.. or some movement.. Thats all.. It is simply to put a political statement up.. Your attitude is actually is very terrible towards it.. I actually thought you were above this but I see your not.. If someone wants to do whatever the Hell they want to do with their OWN PROPERTY IS IT NECCESSARY FOR THEM TO POST A VIDEO UP!! OF COURSE NOT!! I don't atheist Burning/Putting shit on Science Books.. do you? Here is more of the looney toons Atheist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CshCI90Nfqc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gj3rrxS7ug Surely He is doing the same thing, Burning His OWN PROPERTY..

From: Pino Carafa	On: 2007/05/06 12:28:19
Mujtaba, If you're going to lie about what I posted I'm not going to talk to you anymore. My precise comment is: "for someone to have to go out of his way to assert a right that should be undeniably his etc" Now try again. I'm going to insist that you tell me what my intention with that video. Because I feel that if I say it myself, it will wash over you and you won't really listen. If you say it in your words, without knee-jerking and judging me (for what anyway?), and accurately, then I know you've actually understood me. So try again.

From: Mujtaba_Alam	On: 2007/05/06 12:48:54
oops Sorry, I didn't lie, I just missed that part, since I do it fast.. No no I don't want to try again.. coz that was me best shot.. but let me put you bit of logic into you.. if he(the person in the video) wanted to anything with his property is it ok, but if he decided to Choose a Special Book, which other believe in, then he is simply putting a Political statement.. which reads: "Your God is a Piece of Shit and Thats what I think as the Bible".. That all I got..

From: Pino Carafa	On: 2007/05/06 12:52:48
Well, that is what he is saying. But this isn't about what he is saying. What do you think I am saying? Tell me what my intention is. Or are you now willing to listen to me? Without prejudice?

From: Mujtaba_Alam	On: 2007/05/06 12:55:52
I am willing to listen to you, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it.. I can see ur pov.. and If I don't like it, I will tell it to your face..

From: Pino Carafa	On: 2007/05/06 13:33:22
Ok. For the record. I think the guy is acting like a prick. He is deliberately setting out to upset people, and for no good reason. Keep that in mind. Now forget about YouTube. YouTube is just a medium. Let's just say somebody does something as digusting like this anywhere in public. And please accept for the sake of argument that this is in a place where it won't cause an actual disturbance, or endanger anyone, or break any kind of law or by-law. Now what? The guy's still a prick. And I'll be more than happy for you or anyone else to come along and tell him that, to his face. But that's not good enough for some. They would like to see this behaviour banned. Outlawed. On YouTube, it could cause an account to be closed. Bad enough. But people would like this sort of behaviour to be punishable by law. Now ask yourself. Do you want that? Looking at this guy, it would be hard to feel sympathy if he were to be sent to jail or fined. But still, should he? Would you want that to happen to him? I don't. Because you'd be on the slippery slope to outlawing denunciation of religion. I feel everybody should have the fundamental human right to denounce a religion. Next we're down to outlawing criticising religion. And it isn't that far of a stretch to then outlawing adherence to anything other than the Approved Religion. That is the problem I see here. The guy is a prick. But that is all he is. He is not dangerous. He is not inciting hatred toward any other person. He is just expressing an opinion and illustrating it in the most graphic way possible. And he has a right to do this. This right outweighs by far anybody else's sensibilities. There simply is nothing anyone should be able do about him asserting that right. It is very sad that there have to be people like him in the world. But I tell you one thing, it wouldn't be half as sad as living in a world where people like him couldn't express themselves. That would be a world in which living would be hell. Cheers

From: Mujtaba_Alam	On: 2007/05/06 14:01:26
Pino I can understand your point and I sort of knew you were going to say something along those lines.. From my point of view, when I see something like that, I feel sad, because I was starting to feel Atheist were above all that.. It might not be inciting hate but even doing that one sends a wrong message to others.. This is where the Problem is, and it is not limited to one set of people.. I will tell now, what the problem is. Since an Atheist has done this, the Moderate Religious people, who were sort of half in religion and would have accepted Atheist, Homosexual etc.. Would see this as a direct Attack on their faith and now you have changed their Pov about yourself.. They thought your were intelligent people.. now your nothing but bullies.. This make thier Faith More Stronger, not weaker.. The same thing is happening in UK, with the Muslims.. After the attacks and some tougher laws and people calling for intergrating.. Most Moderate Muslims who didn't even practise.. Now they feel Fear and Indanger.. and Out of Fear, come fundamentals.. Now the next-gen of Young Muslims who were born there.. Are going to become terrorist.. This Make their Faith Strong.. not weak.. Why, because a lack of understanding and mistakes made.. It can be easy to say, that everyone has the right to express themselves.. but one should keep in mind, how other will react to it.. In the USA one guy made a small racist comment on the radio, he got fired, he worked their for 30-40 odd years.. ONE COMMENT!! You write something about a celeb in a new papers, you get sued.. Thats the freedom of speech?

From: Pino Carafa	On: 2007/05/07 10:38:41
Mujtaba, Listen to yourself: > This make thier Faith More Stronger, not weaker The assumption underlying that is mind-boggling. Do you think I want to weaken anybody's faith? Do you think I'm out to "convert" people to "atheism"? That is ridiculous. On the contrary, my friend, I want us to celebrate the various faiths around the world. It's that diversity that makes the world such a colourful place. > now your nothing but bullies I beg your pardon? In what sense? Am I trying to force my lack of belief on anyone? No. Is that guy trying to force his lack of belief on anyone? No. So what, exactly, are we "bullying" anyone over? Please answer that question. Is asserting the fact that you should have the right to have whatever opinion you see fit bullying? I think what you are doing in this thread is much more like bullying. After all, what are you suggesting here? That the guy in the video should shut the fuck up? Yes, his video was crass. It's in extremely bad taste. So, what then? Ban it? Should we ostracise this man? Should we conspire to ensure that he can never ever publish any of this stuff? I remind you of what he is doing: he is illustrating what he thinks about a book, and he is publicly and in quite a disgusting fashion destroying a copy of that book. A copy that he went out and bought in a shop. It is his own property. > In the USA one guy made a small racist comment on the radio, he got fired Are you a fucking retard? Don't you see the difference here? The guy's comment, assuming you're making a statement of fact - I have no idea what you're talking about - was racist. That comment boils down to an assertion that some people are inferior. That is in an entirely different order of magnitude from a declaration that some book is a "piece of shit". That is where you are staring yourself blind on your so-called "tolerance". Fuck that type of tolerance. > You write something about a celeb in a new papers, you get sued Not if it's your opinion about somebody. Yes, if it's a bare-faced lie. See the difference? Like I said: what do you suggest? Ban his video? Ensure it will never ever be aired anywhere? That is an infringement of that fucker's right to express his opinion. I much rather celebrate that dickhead's freedom to publish that kind of tripe than know that there are people whose right to express themselves is being oppressed. And if that strenghtens anybody's faith, good for them.

From: Mujtaba_Alam	On: 2007/05/07 11:31:57
@ Pino >> That is ridiculous. On the contrary, my friend, I want us to celebrate the various faiths around the world. It's that diversity that makes the world such a colourful place. << I agree.. to that, that what I have wanted all along.. The point I was making was, that Once you sink to that level, those moderate people (religious People).. who will be more will to accept science/religion and not go into fundamentalism.. Now will go against you in the other direct.. and fall prey to preachers, who would probably see you sinners, now they have ammo to attack back.. I have pointed out once, there are many millions of people who will believe in god, but would never do anything religion, expect christmas and other holidays.. >> Are you a fucking retard? Don't you see the difference here? << Actually I do, but tell that the Christians.. Have you show this video to you christian, wife? whats her opinion.. just as a matter of interest.. The Point I was making was, their really is no such as Freedom of Speak.. You slip up a bit and people(fundamental) who are against you are waiting for that moment.. If you show that video to a christian, you know what they will say: "Atheist Say Christians don't have tolerance toward them, but infact it they who don't have tolerance towards the christians etc.." Its like hitting your own foot with an axe.. --- I would not suggest banning the video.. Infact I would not suggest anything.. its not my problem.. You Ban it, people get Criticized .. You don't Ban it, people get Criticized .. I am not bullying you, I trying to make you understand, you need to hold back on a few somethings, to make your point across and you never know, some people, might get it.. If one shows agression, you will get agression back.. Mushy..

From: Pino Carafa	On: 2007/05/07 11:54:08
What aggression? The guy is destroying a book

From: Mujtaba_Alam	On: 2007/05/07 11:55:57
why don't you ever come online.. We agree on the same thing.. so why argue over it.. I get ur point..

From: Pino Carafa	On: 2007/05/07 12:07:44
In all fairness, the problem isn't really that big here in Ireland. Another reason why I would never post a video like this myself. But in the USA, it becomes more and more problematic to show any sort of opinion that is not favourable toward religion. You'll find doors closed in your face. Lives made more difficult. That is the slippery slope there.

From: Mujtaba_Alam	On: 2007/05/07 12:15:23
>> Another reason why I would never post a video like this myself. << You, could, but I see you smarter and more intelligent then that.. ..

From: Analog_Kid	On: 2007/06/27 11:24:40
Let the baby burn his bible. <shesh> (Actually, if I remember it correctly, what this guy did was pretty disgusting. The video has since been removed.) But this reminded me of a true story: I was camping with a group of pagans. One of them recently had cleaned out his mothers house. She had been living there for decades and had amassed a lot of clutter. Among her belongings were several bibles (dozens perhaps). He, not really knowing what he could do with them (and all the other useless paperwork from his mum), decided to take it with him camping for use as kindling. Being a practice man, it seemed an efficient use of the material. One evening, he was preparing a fire and was about to use one of the bibles as planned. (I believe it was "The Modern Way" paperback version). Apparently a Christian devotee who happened to be nearby (for what ever reason) was totally aghast that some evil pagan would even think to destroy the word of god. Reassured, the Christian gal accepted the bible as a gift from my Pagan friend, though she refused to take all the others which he had also offered her. In the end, we enjoyed many evenings of successfully lit campfires, much clutter was converted to fuel, and and the knowledge that there is a Christian out there somewhere who can be proud she rescued a Bible from an 'evil' Pagan is priceless.

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